Life in Myanmar under a coup

On February 1, Min Aung Hlaing, the commander-in-chief of the Burmese Tatmadaw, the military, orchestrated a coup d’etat against the democratically elected government led by Aung San Suu Kyi’s National League for Democracy. The coup has attempted to undo years of democracy after five decades of military rule under the Burmese junta. Protests followed almost immediately, with citizens taking to the streets. 

Two weeks ago, on March 18, I spoke to two Burmese youths living and working in Myanmar over the internet. At that time, the military had begun to crack down on peaceful protests and the two were anxious and under tremendous stress. They were uncertain about their lives and their country’s future. They both feare

On February 1, Min Aung Hlaing, the commander-in-chief of the Burmese Tatmadaw, the military, orchestrated a coup d’etat against the democratically elected government led by Aung San Suu Kyi’s National League for Democracy. The coup has attempted to undo years of democracy after five decades of military rule under the Burmese junta. Protests followed almost immediately, with citizens taking to the streets. 

Two weeks ago, on March 18, I spoke to two Burmese youths living and working in Myanmar over the internet. At that time, the military had begun to crack down on peaceful protests and the two were anxious and under tremendous stress. They were uncertain about their lives and their country’s future. They both feared an impending civil war. Wai and his family members had left their home in Mandalay because smoke from three days of burning tires affected their respiration. Wai was residing at his friend’s place, whereas his parents were living with their relatives.

Aung, who lives in Yangon, told me how military men were shooting people indiscriminately in her neighborhood. Over 200 people had been killed when I interviewed Aung and Wai. As of March 31, over 500 people have been killed in the bloody crackdown that the Tatmadaw has unleashed on Burmese citizens. Aung fears that the death toll might be even higher since the military has cut off internet access in rural areas and there is no information coming out.

Since we spoke, the situation in Myanmar has gotten worse. Over a hundred protestors were killed on Saturday, March 27, alone in a ‘day of shame’ for Myanmar. While we have stayed in contact, the frequency of our chats has reduced, which I fear may be because of intermittent internet. As of now, I believe that both Wai and Aung are safe. 

Both names have been changed to protect their identities. This interview has been edited for length and clarity. 

How are you? What is your state of mind?

Wai: It is quite depressing. Quite anxious at the same time, since for the last two-three weeks, there have been daily reports of people being shot to death. Worse, you feel angry but you cannot do anything about it. You cannot fight back. 

Aung: I’m okay...When it started, people were protesting and the crackdowns were not that extreme. The military started crackdowns about a month ago. I am talking about my experiences in Yangon, which used to be the capital city of Myanmar. It [the experience] may vary for someone in Mandalay and other rural areas. After February 22, the military set up barricades in front of embassies such as those of the US, the UK, and Singapore and started controlling us using water cannons and bullets. Because it became increasingly dangerous to protest, protesters would erect their own barricades in their neighborhoods and protests from there. Even then, the illegitimate military government would come and start firing with real bullets at those protesters. If you are following the news, as of March 15, more than 183 people have been killed in the crackdown. The number could be higher. It will be higher. If they [the military] kill protesters, they take the dead and sometimes, they don’t return the bodies.

They started doing more crackdowns after February 22, right?

Aung: Yeah, the most intense one I believe was February 28. On March 3, there was also another major crackdown. I remember we were out and a lot of people were getting shot. Given the location, the crackdown could be happening in one township, but it may not have any effect on another township. If you live in tense areas, where a lot of protests take place, it is likely that soldiers will come and fire at people’s houses too.

How has the whole thing affected you or your family? Do you even go to work? Or is everything canceled?

Wai: I’ve been working from home since Covid-19 started but the coup has affected us all. On Sunday, protesters set ablaze old tires in my neighborhood, right by my house, for three-four days. All the smoke from the tires came into our house so we had to move out. Currently, I am at my friend’s, and my parents are staying with their relatives. Barricades and burning tires don’t have much effect when you are facing a standing army. They can only burn so many tires. In more residential neighborhoods — those close to the downtown area — security forces have been violently cracking down. People living in those neighborhoods have to live through tear gas, grenades, and sometimes real bullets. In Myanmar, old people live with their families and they might be feeling really anxious from all the shootings and bombs. I read a report a few days back that an old lady in her eighties died of a heart attack from the constant police raids and shootings.

Aung: Right now, I am working from home. Most civil servants are taking part in the Civil Disobedience Movement [CDM] and deliberately don’t go to offices. If your work involves governmental service, and if that particular government agency is doing CDM, then you cannot finish your work.   

That is a daring thing to do. Do you have the number of people who are doing CDM at the moment?

Aung: If you follow the CRPH [Committee Representing Pyidaungsu Hluttaw, a self-declared parliamentary committee to counter the military], you may be able to find the number. However, people may not register their names and risk themselves. The illegitimate government has often come to people’s houses, or houses provided by the government, and taken them away and forced them to work. It has happened before and it is still happening now. 

The level of anger against the military must be at an all-time high, which is motivating millions of people to come to the streets, right? 

Aung: Yes. Last Sunday [March 15], more than 73 people were killed in just one day. There are other places where more people may have been killed, which we may not know about. Given Yangon is one of the developed parts of Myanmar, we have access to the internet. But in rural areas, people do not have access to wi-fi. They can only access data and two days ago [March 16], the military cut off data. Telecom operators were told that they could no longer provide mobile data to people. So, right now, news is not coming in as much as it used to.

So, we really don’t know what is happening on the ground there. It could be worse.

Aung: Yes, it could be worse. No, not could be worse. It will be worse.

That is pretty scary. So, how inclusive is the movement? You are in Yangon and there are movements in town and rural areas. How inclusive is the movement in terms of ethnicities? Myanmar is ethnically diverse with over 130 ethnicities. Is the current movement mostly driven by Bamar people, or is there representation from other ethnic groups as well?

Aung: This time around, it is very inclusive. Usually, movements are very Bamar-dominated but this time many ethnic groups are coming together. 

Even from regions heavily controlled by armed groups like northern Myanmar?

Aung: Correct. The KIA [Kachin Independence Army] and KNU [Karen National Union] have been very active on the coup issue. Previously, the military had a lot of power and waged war against these groups. This time around, CRPH leaders are trying to set up a federal government, which will be more inclusive. Different ethnic groups will be given positions in government roles.

Are these groups fighting because they want a separate country or more autonomy?

Wai: They want reasons to rule their own territories. But I think most ethnic minority groups want to be in a federal union with more individual autonomy given to them. The peace process has been going for the past decade under the democratic government. In principle, everyone has agreed that the country should go into the federal union. It will be a federal country and ethnic-based states will be given more autonomy.

So, I assume these ethnic groups might have rolled out support letters for the ongoing movement?

Aung: Actually, you can say that those ethnic armed groups [in the northern and southern regions] have been at war against the Myanmar military for decades. But this time, we [those living in urban areas, away from conflict zones] are experiencing what they have been experiencing all along.  

Wai: The statements came out today [March 18]. Definitely, there is negotiation going on behind the curtains. Hopefully, a unified standing army will come out and fight against Tatmadaw.

That is a good segue into what I am going to ask you. With more killings, foreigners are paying more attention to the people’s movement. But before the coup, foreigners were displeased with the Burmese people because they were not paying attention to the persecution of the Rohingyas, which dominated the news cycle around the world. Do you think there is something fundamentally different happening this time around?  

Aung: If you go back to the Rohingya issue, a lot of people, including me, were not paying attention to it. People had a strong sentiment back then that they [Rohingyas] are not our people. People were just sitting idle when the genocide was happening. But now the same thing is happening to us. That is when a lot of people realized that it was wrong for Aung San Suu Kyi to actually defend the military. 

Wai: Definitely, there is a change in sentiment, especially among the younger generation. They are not only talking about restoring the NLD government but are also demanding freedom of expression, human rights, minority rights, and the rights for Rohingyas to be citizens and live freely. They have become more sympathetic than before. They now realize what the military did to the Rohingyas was true. Previously, people thought that news of military atrocities was fake. People further bought into that when Aung San Suu Kyi decided to side with the military, saying there is a lack of evidence. Because of her stance on this, people did not know how badly Rohingyas were treated. But now, people have come to realize how brutal, ruthless, and inhumane the military must have been in rural areas. They have seen how the military shoot people in their own apartment or how indiscriminately they kill protesters on the streets. 

The military has been at war with ethnic minorities since independence in 1948. Fighting did not affect the cities and the central heartland of Myanmar, where the majority live. The military has no regard for human life, and that made a lot of people realize how dangerous the military is as an institution.

Moving forward, do you think there will be an inclusive government? Are people thinking ambitiously about the post-military national order where there will be a full democracy, where different ethnic groups can co-exist together?  

Aung: I think so. A lot of young people, especially from Gen Z, are protesting now. These young people are at the front lines and are leading the protest. In the last 10 years, they had a better education system, which did not encourage divisions. So, Gen Z has grown up to be more open-minded than previous generations. I believe if you follow CRPH — which is available in English and Burmese — you can see them stating that they will set up a federal government and will include diverse ethnic groups. Even the vice president of the CRPH is an ethnic group member right now.  

From what I have gathered, there seems to be a tiered citizenry in Myanmar. You have the Bamar people, who are at the top and are perceived to be full citizens of the country, and it just goes down from there. There are then people living in marginal areas, who have fewer rights. Is it like that? 

Aung: I didn't quite get your question.

For instance, in India, the Modi government is attempting to create a two-tier citizenry. Hindus are considered full citizens whereas Muslims are treated as people who’ve come from outside and are seen as second-class citizens. Does the same thing exist in Myanmar with the majority Bamar people and other ethnic groups like the Rohingya, who are plainly considered outsiders? In other words, is there an ethnic hierarchy in the country?

Wai: No, I don’t think there is a hierarchy. It is a touchy thing to talk about. The country opened up to the world only recently in 2011. Ever since then, religious nationalism has been growing. There has been propaganda about protecting race and the Buddhist religion. There is a fear that Muslims might take over. So, if you are not Buddhist, yes, you get discriminated against to some degree and have harder times in terms of your rights. Because the majority of the people are Buddhists, nationalists want to make that a state religion. This has caused a lot of fear and anxiety in minority groups that follow other religions. As long as you are Buddhist, you are fine. There is no Bamar nationalism that discriminates against other minorities.

Aung: When you mean hierarchy, do you mean legally or socially?

I would say both. Are there more barriers for people to exercise their rights if they are not Bamar people?

Aung: Legally, I don’t think so. I am not a Bamar person, I descended from Chinese people who mixed with local ethnic groups. But socially, yes. Even in the US, we always hear discrimination about race. We have a similar thing going on socially in Burma. I have never encountered a situation where you hold different types of registration cards and you are treated differently.  

But what about Rohingyas? They were systemically stripped of their rights. Their houses were burned. They were forced out of the country.

Wai: I think it is xenophobia, it is Islamophobia. The state where Rohingyas live is Rakhine and the Rakhine state is named after the Rakhine ethnic group. They are separate from the Bamar people. They are also Buddhist. It is a minority-minority sort of clash there.

There is a Burmese phrase called ‘Taingyinthar seelonenyinyutyay’ that means the unity of all ethnic groups. It is not always that we will treat everyone the same, but in essence, everyone agrees that every ethnic group should be treated fairly and should be given equal opportunity and rights. For Burmese people, I don’t think they hold anti-ethnic sentiments. But some groups may have systemic advantages. Bamar majority live mostly in cities, where development takes place. On the other end, ethnic minorities live in resource-rich areas from where the central government extracts timber, oil, gas, etc. The budget that the government gets from selling those resources doesn’t get allocated to ethnic minority groups. So, there is a systemic unfairness. From a Burmese person’s perspective, there is no discrimination.

The National League of Democracy, Aung San Suu Kyi’s party, was leading in the polls and it won the election. And now during the protests, we see a lot of flags from that party. Are there any leftist parties out there? Or is it just NLD right now?

Aung: Right now, just NLD. There are some other political parties, but they are not so well-known. NLD is, therefore, the leading party. For most of the younger people, the whole fiasco is not just about the elections. A lot of older people think it is about NLD versus USDP [Union Solidarity and Development Party], which is a party closer to the military. Some of us have seen what it was to live before the quasi-democracy and during the quasi-democracy [2011-2021]. We have been in that situation where we have seen both sides of the wall, and we know for a fact that if we go [back] to the older times or the dark era, there will be no opportunity for us. For that cause, a lot of people are fighting this time around.

Wai: The NLD has formed the CRPH, basically a committee representing the national parliament of Myanmar. It is composed of a small cabinet of four to five ministers and it also has a special envoy to the United Nations. His name is Salai Maung Taing San, also called Dr Sasa in short, who is supposedly communicating with international agencies to find a diplomatic solution to the current problem. The UN has not acknowledged the legitimacy of the military government 

I was reading an article that mentioned how Myanmar’s Gen Z did not grow up under the tight military regime and actually saw reforms and enjoyed basic civic freedoms. They, therefore, don’t want to go back to authoritarian times and lose their freedoms, which explains why protests have been fierce both online and offline. Are you seeing the same sort of anger and frustration from people younger than you?

Aung: I can totally see that. Right now, if I am being very honest, going to protest in the street is very, very dangerous, even in my neighborhood. People have been shot to death just because they participated. Despite that, younger people have been going to protest almost every single day, and they have been creative with the protests. 

What next from here? Do you think the military strategy is to wear out people? People have been on the streets for 50 days since the coup. What is the energy like on your side?  

Aung: Honestly, I don’t know. For sure, the military is doing everything to tire people out. The crackdowns happen in the daytime. In the evening, we have curfews and we cannot go anywhere. Some nights, the military comes to your neighborhood and they start shooting in the air and sometimes towards your house with real and rubber bullets. Some night they don’t. Despite all this heavy-handedness, protesters have come to the streets. When I talk to my friends, I can also sense fatigue. The protests have been going on for so long. 

However, there are also protesters who think it is going well, given that we now have a legitimate government, the CRPH, who is representing us. The UN has been giving statement after statement, which, at this moment, does not really help much. Also, ethnic groups have condemned the actions of the military, which is another optimistic ray. So, yeah, the protests could go on. Some people say it could go on until next month. It could go even further.

Wai: There is no real strategy from protesters. There is no leadership or driving force that is organizing these anti-coup protests around the country. It is mostly college-going students at the front. There was no strategy when the military started shooting and using violence to suppress peaceful protest. So, it is a sort of wait-and-watch scenario.

There are talks going on social media that we should fight back or at least we should defend ourselves, but there is not much you can do when you are facing an armed group of soldiers who can shoot you down at any point. Using violence is not a practical or realistic solution right now. The most the protesters can do is build barricades and stop police from coming in. Even today, military and police terrorists came to neighborhoods to remove the barricades. They also force you to go to work. 

How are people surviving when markets are closed? 

Aung: Markets are not closed. Banks are. I forgot to mention that banks, private and public ones, are doing CDM. It has been difficult to withdraw money because of that. The banks have been nice enough to put money in the ATM but cash withdrawals are high. We cannot spend money because we are facing a cash shortage.

China and Russia seem to be supporting the military. There was a protest near the Chinese industrial site and China issued a statement condemning the attack. China and Russia blocked a resolution at the UN Security Council. The US meanwhile is supporting the protesters. What do you think people’s sentiment is? Are people turning more towards the US, and turning away from China?

Aung: Yes, for sure. We used to import a lot of goods from China, but we have started boycotting a lot of Chinese products. The sentiment regarding China has been negative lately.

Wai: In the UN Security Council, Russia and China have historically sided with no-interference and no-action policy. They have always used their veto power to prevent UN forces from coming in and they blocked the UN resolution condemning the coup in February. Recently, they only agreed on a UN resolution condemning the violent crackdown. The UN, as a body, is not going to take any action. It can only tell us to restore democracy. It can only say “free Aung San Suu Kyi”.

What was the perception of China before the coup?

Aung: Oh, before the coup, it was like Chinese products don’t have good quality. Right now, we make sure we don’t consume their products anymore here.

How are your parents? What is their stance on the coup? They went through the 1988 coup and they spent most of their time under the military regime. How are they reacting to whatever is unfolding right before their eyes? 

Aung: There are some old people who are saying that 1988 was worse and that they have gone through worse. But at the same time, most of the people who have gone through 1988 say they don’t want to see more dead bodies. They want to go back to normal, even if it means going to the time before quasi-democracy. They are more complacent, I would say. I cannot say what other older people think, but at least in my circle, they don’t want to see more dead bodies moving forward.

Wai: They are worried but they still allow me to protest. A few weeks ago, I was protesting on the road, when it was relatively peaceful.

I assume it is a different story for Gen Z, who are more connected with people from their generation and have witnessed more freedom. They definitely do not want to give up on their freedom.

Aung: Yes, and besides Gen Z, there are other groups of people as well, who, within the last decade, saw their standard of living improve under the NLD regime. Those people are also fighting hard for this cause. They have seen the darker era and the last 10 years.

Was it because, in the past decade, there was democracy, foreign direct investment, creation of jobs, etc., whereas, during the military regime, the country was largely shut off? 

Aung: This group of people is mostly blue-collar workers. They have seen their minimum wage increase and how subsidies have helped them. All these factors improved their standard of living. If they come from a low-income family, they have seen their children go to school without paying school fees. And those people are also fighting against the military.

What do you think international actors can do to help the CDM movement?

Wai: I don’t know. The junta’s aim is to set up a government like the one in Thailand, which we call the Thai model, where the military holds a lot of power, but the economy is uninterrupted. Bureaucracy still runs. Myanmar military wants to keep the economy open and grow it as much as they can. So that is their policy. They will make it easier for foreigners to invest in the country.

Personally, I used to think that sanctions don’t work. It only harms people in the country. But now I am reconsidering that. I don’t want to grow under the military regime, even if they want to grow the country economically because that growth will sustain the military, and we won’t be able to fight against them — as observed in Singapore and China. They are good economically, but not in other regards. Right now, I support protests against the military. We will be alright. We will grow our vegetables. We can sustain the sanction. We don’t want the country to grow so much that it will be hard for us to kick the military out of politics.

Aung: If you asked me, I would say more exposure. But I am sure this whole coup and how cruel and brutal this military government is known to the world already. Two things that international actors could do is to put more pressure on the UN to have the courage to come into the country. What the world is seeing right now is only a part of the brutality of this illegitimate government. In rural and suburban areas, the military treats individuals terribly. Those abuses the world has not seen yet. Second, spreading awareness on human rights abuses can help gain more attention and put pressure on the UN to actually take action. At this point, the UN is just issuing statements and the statements do not help us.

It is interesting to note the strategy that the military wants to emulate. They must also have several models such as Pakistan’s, where you have a token civilian government, but behind that military has all the power. Pakistan has elections, but those elections are disputable. The military amasses all the power, and over even hair-triggering incidents, they can usurp the power from the civilian government.

Wai: Have there been a lot of coups [in Pakistan]?

Yes, there have been coups, and several politicians have been assassinated as well. Most people who are politically conscious would want to trim the military. They would not want it to grow so that it will be difficult in the future to stop them. It is a critical time. The needle can swing in either direction.

Wai: A lot of things could happen in a couple of months. It is really uncertain. Not every civil servant has joined the CDM movement. A significant number of them are doing CDM and not going to work. The banking industry has not opened fully. All private bank employees have also refused to go to work. The economy is at a halt. So, if we keep going like this, the economy will probably crash.

And it would be a good thing politically?

Wai: It could be a good thing or a bad thing. Yeah, it could force the military to give up power. Or it could even push them to undertake more destructive steps, like denouncing the currency or create hyperinflation, which could cause a lot of commodity prices to go up and lead to starvation. That’s my fear.

Do you think people can get rid of military men in power who are killing people? 

Aung: I believe so. We should get rid of the people who took part in the coup. I think CRPH, with the support of all those armed ethnic groups, is ready to go to civil war. 

Do you think that is a possibility: an inclusive CRPH-led offense against the military?

Aung: I think that will be a possibility going forward. In the semi-urban and rural areas, a lot of protesters already have arms, which they are using to defend themselves against the military. In the southern and northern parts, ethnic groups are already at war against the military.   

Wai: Yes, I think there is a possibility. The point to ponder is whether there could be a successful operation to overthrow the military, or if that idea would just be mired in complex questions such as who is going to be the general of the federal army. There are so many ethnic groups and small ethnic armed groups. It will be hard to organize them into a standing army and set up proper rules. If a civil war breaks out, there is a possibility that small splinter groups will overtake small towns, like what happened in Syria and Libya, where small groups control territories. The whole country will be broken into many holdings. There will be a lot of bloodshed and there will be no rule of law. The question is, how badly will that affect the public?  I mean, in some sense, there is already a civil war in Myanmar. Ethnic groups have already been fighting the military for six decades. The war has just not reached the major cities yet.

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d an impending civil war. Wai and his family members had left their home in Mandalay because smoke from three days of burning tires affected their respiration. Wai was residing at his friend’s place, whereas his parents were living with their relatives.

Aung, who lives in Yangon, told me how military men were shooting people indiscriminately in her neighborhood. Over 200 people had been killed when I interviewed Aung and Wai. As of March 31, over 500 people have been killed in the bloody crackdown that the Tatmadaw has unleashed on Burmese citizens. Aung fears that the death toll might be even higher since the military has cut off internet access in rural areas and there is no information coming out.

Since we spoke, the situation in Myanmar has gotten worse. Over a hundred protestors were killed on Saturday, March 27, alone in a ‘day of shame’ for Myanmar. While we have stayed in contact, the frequency of our chats has reduced, which I fear may be because of intermittent internet. As of now, I believe that both Wai and Aung are safe. 

Both names have been changed to protect their identities. This interview has been edited for length and clarity. 

How are you? What is your state of mind?

Wai: It is quite depressing. Quite anxious at the same time, since for the last two-three weeks, there have been daily reports of people being shot to death. Worse, you feel angry but you cannot do anything about it. You cannot fight back. 

Aung: I’m okay...When it started, people were protesting and the crackdowns were not that extreme. The military started crackdowns about a month ago. I am talking about my experiences in Yangon, which used to be the capital city of Myanmar. It [the experience] may vary for someone in Mandalay and other rural areas. After February 22, the military set up barricades in front of embassies such as those of the US, the UK, and Singapore and started controlling us using water cannons and bullets. Because it became increasingly dangerous to protest, protesters would erect their own barricades in their neighborhoods and protests from there. Even then, the illegitimate military government would come and start firing with real bullets at those protesters. If you are following the news, as of March 15, more than 183 people have been killed in the crackdown. The number could be higher. It will be higher. If they [the military] kill protesters, they take the dead and sometimes, they don’t return the bodies.

They started doing more crackdowns after February 22, right?

Aung: Yeah, the most intense one I believe was February 28. On March 3, there was also another major crackdown. I remember we were out and a lot of people were getting shot. Given the location, the crackdown could be happening in one township, but it may not have any effect on another township. If you live in tense areas, where a lot of protests take place, it is likely that soldiers will come and fire at people’s houses too.

How has the whole thing affected you or your family? Do you even go to work? Or is everything canceled?

Wai: I’ve been working from home since Covid-19 started but the coup has affected us all. On Sunday, protesters set ablaze old tires in my neighborhood, right by my house, for three-four days. All the smoke from the tires came into our house so we had to move out. Currently, I am at my friend’s, and my parents are staying with their relatives. Barricades and burning tires don’t have much effect when you are facing a standing army. They can only burn so many tires. In more residential neighborhoods — those close to the downtown area — security forces have been violently cracking down. People living in those neighborhoods have to live through tear gas, grenades, and sometimes real bullets. In Myanmar, old people live with their families and they might be feeling really anxious from all the shootings and bombs. I read a report a few days back that an old lady in her eighties died of a heart attack from the constant police raids and shootings.

Aung: Right now, I am working from home. Most civil servants are taking part in the Civil Disobedience Movement [CDM] and deliberately don’t go to offices. If your work involves governmental service, and if that particular government agency is doing CDM, then you cannot finish your work.   

That is a daring thing to do. Do you have the number of people who are doing CDM at the moment?

Aung: If you follow the CRPH [Committee Representing Pyidaungsu Hluttaw, a self-declared parliamentary committee to counter the military], you may be able to find the number. However, people may not register their names and risk themselves. The illegitimate government has often come to people’s houses, or houses provided by the government, and taken them away and forced them to work. It has happened before and it is still happening now. 

The level of anger against the military must be at an all-time high, which is motivating millions of people to come to the streets, right? 

Aung: Yes. Last Sunday [March 15], more than 73 people were killed in just one day. There are other places where more people may have been killed, which we may not know about. Given Yangon is one of the developed parts of Myanmar, we have access to the internet. But in rural areas, people do not have access to wi-fi. They can only access data and two days ago [March 16], the military cut off data. Telecom operators were told that they could no longer provide mobile data to people. So, right now, news is not coming in as much as it used to.

So, we really don’t know what is happening on the ground there. It could be worse.

Aung: Yes, it could be worse. No, not could be worse. It will be worse.

That is pretty scary. So, how inclusive is the movement? You are in Yangon and there are movements in town and rural areas. How inclusive is the movement in terms of ethnicities? Myanmar is ethnically diverse with over 130 ethnicities. Is the current movement mostly driven by Bamar people, or is there representation from other ethnic groups as well?

Aung: This time around, it is very inclusive. Usually, movements are very Bamar-dominated but this time many ethnic groups are coming together. 

Even from regions heavily controlled by armed groups like northern Myanmar?

Aung: Correct. The KIA [Kachin Independence Army] and KNU [Karen National Union] have been very active on the coup issue. Previously, the military had a lot of power and waged war against these groups. This time around, CRPH leaders are trying to set up a federal government, which will be more inclusive. Different ethnic groups will be given positions in government roles.

Are these groups fighting because they want a separate country or more autonomy?

Wai: They want reasons to rule their own territories. But I think most ethnic minority groups want to be in a federal union with more individual autonomy given to them. The peace process has been going for the past decade under the democratic government. In principle, everyone has agreed that the country should go into the federal union. It will be a federal country and ethnic-based states will be given more autonomy.

So, I assume these ethnic groups might have rolled out support letters for the ongoing movement?

Aung: Actually, you can say that those ethnic armed groups [in the northern and southern regions] have been at war against the Myanmar military for decades. But this time, we [those living in urban areas, away from conflict zones] are experiencing what they have been experiencing all along. 

Wai: The statements came out today [March 18]. Definitely, there is negotiation going on behind the curtains. Hopefully, a unified standing army will come out and fight against Tatmadaw.

That is a good segue into what I am going to ask you. With more killings, foreigners are paying more attention to the people’s movement. But before the coup, foreigners were displeased with the Burmese people because they were not paying attention to the persecution of the Rohingyas, which dominated the news cycle around the world. Do you think there is something fundamentally different happening this time around?  

Aung: If you go back to the Rohingya issue, a lot of people, including me, were not paying attention to it. People had a strong sentiment back then that they [Rohingyas] are not our people. People were just sitting idle when the genocide was happening. But now the same thing is happening to us. That is when a lot of people realized that it was wrong for Aung San Suu Kyi to actually defend the military. 

Wai: Definitely, there is a change in sentiment, especially among the younger generation. They are not only talking about restoring the NLD government but are also demanding freedom of expression, human rights, minority rights, and the rights for Rohingyas to be citizens and live freely. They have become more sympathetic than before. They now realize what the military did to the Rohingyas was true. Previously, people thought that news of military atrocities was fake. People further bought into that when Aung San Suu Kyi decided to side with the military, saying there is a lack of evidence. Because of her stance on this, people did not know how badly Rohingyas were treated. But now, people have come to realize how brutal, ruthless, and inhumane the military must have been in rural areas. They have seen how the military shoot people in their own apartment or how indiscriminately they kill protesters on the streets. The military has been at war with ethnic minorities since independence in 1948. Fighting did not affect the cities and the central heartland of Myanmar, where the majority live. The military has no regard for human life, and that made a lot of people realize how dangerous the military is as an institution.

Moving forward, do you think there will be an inclusive government? Are people thinking ambitiously about the post-military national order where there will be a full democracy, where different ethnic groups can co-exist together?  

Aung: I think so. A lot of young people, especially from Gen Z, are protesting now. These young people are at the front lines and are leading the protest. In the last 10 years, they had a better education system, which did not encourage divisions. So, Gen Z has grown up to be more open-minded than previous generations. I believe if you follow CRPH — which is available in English and Burmese — you can see them stating that they will set up a federal government and will include diverse ethnic groups. Even the vice president of the CRPH is an ethnic group member right now.  

From what I have gathered, there seems to be a tiered citizenry in Myanmar. You have the Bamar people, who are at the top and are perceived to be full citizens of the country, and it just goes down from there. There are then people living in marginal areas, who have fewer rights. Is it like that? 

Aung: I didn't quite get your question.

For instance, in India, the Modi government is attempting to create a two-tier citizenry. Hindus are considered full citizens whereas Muslims are treated as people who’ve come from outside and are seen as second-class citizens. Does the same thing exist in Myanmar with the majority Bamar people and other ethnic groups like the Rohingya, who are plainly considered outsiders? In other words, is there an ethnic hierarchy in the country?

Wai: No, I don’t think there is a hierarchy. It is a touchy thing to talk about. The country opened up to the world only recently in 2011. Ever since then, religious nationalism has been growing. There has been propaganda about protecting race and the Buddhist religion. There is a fear that Muslims might take over. So, if you are not Buddhist, yes, you get discriminated against to some degree and have harder times in terms of your rights. Because the majority of the people are Buddhists, nationalists want to make that a state religion. This has caused a lot of fear and anxiety in minority groups that follow other religions. As long as you are Buddhist, you are fine. There is no Bamar nationalism that discriminates against other minorities.

Aung: When you mean hierarchy, do you mean legally or socially?

I would say both. Are there more barriers for people to exercise their rights if they are not Bamar people?

Aung: Legally, I don’t think so. I am not a Bamar person, I descended from Chinese people who mixed with local ethnic groups. But socially, yes. Even in the US, we always hear discrimination about race. We have a similar thing going on socially in Burma. I have never encountered a situation where you hold different types of registration cards and you are treated differently.  

But what about Rohingyas? They were systemically stripped of their rights. Their houses were burned. They were forced out of the country.

Wai: I think it is xenophobia, it is Islamophobia. The state where Rohingyas live is Rakhine and the Rakhine state is named after the Rakhine ethnic group. They are separate from the Bamar people. They are also Buddhist. It is a minority-minority sort of clash there. There is a Burmese phrase called ‘Taingyinthar seelonenyinyutyay’ that means the unity of all ethnic groups. It is not always that we will treat everyone the same, but in essence, everyone agrees that every ethnic group should be treated fairly and should be given equal opportunity and rights. For Burmese people, I don’t think they hold anti-ethnic sentiments. But some groups may have systemic advantages. Bamar majority live mostly in cities, where development takes place. On the other end, ethnic minorities live in resource-rich areas from where the central government extracts timber, oil, gas, etc. The budget that the government gets from selling those resources doesn’t get allocated to ethnic minority groups. So, there is a systemic unfairness. From a Burmese person’s perspective, there is no discrimination.

The National League of Democracy, Aung San Suu Kyi’s party, was leading in the polls and it won the election. And now during the protests, we see a lot of flags from that party. Are there any leftist parties out there? Or is it just NLD right now?

Aung: Right now, just NLD. There are some other political parties, but they are not so well-known. NLD is, therefore, the leading party. For most of the younger people, the whole fiasco is not just about the elections. A lot of older people think it is about NLD versus USDP [Union Solidarity and Development Party], which is a party closer to the military. Some of us have seen what it was to live before the quasi-democracy and during the quasi-democracy [2011-2021]. We have been in that situation where we have seen both sides of the wall, and we know for a fact that if we go [back] to the older times or the dark era, there will be no opportunity for us. For that cause, a lot of people are fighting this time around.

Wai: The NLD has formed the CRPH, basically a committee representing the national parliament of Myanmar. It is composed of a small cabinet of four to five ministers and it also has a special envoy to the United Nations. His name is Salai Maung Taing San, also called Dr Sasa in short, who is supposedly communicating with international agencies to find a diplomatic solution to the current problem. The UN has not acknowledged the legitimacy of the military government 

I was reading an article that mentioned how Myanmar’s Gen Z did not grow up under the tight military regime and actually saw reforms and enjoyed basic civic freedoms. They, therefore, don’t want to go back to authoritarian times and lose their freedoms, which explains why protests have been fierce both online and offline. Are you seeing the same sort of anger and frustration from people younger than you?

Aung: I can totally see that. Right now, if I am being very honest, going to protest in the street is very, very dangerous, even in my neighborhood. People have been shot to death just because they participated. Despite that, younger people have been going to protest almost every single day, and they have been creative with the protests. 

What next from here? Do you think the military strategy is to wear out people? People have been on the streets for 50 days since the coup. What is the energy like on your side?  

Aung: Honestly, I don’t know. For sure, the military is doing everything to tire people out. The crackdowns happen in the daytime. In the evening, we have curfews and we cannot go anywhere. Some nights, the military comes to your neighborhood and they start shooting in the air and sometimes towards your house with real and rubber bullets. Some night they don’t. Despite all this heavy-handedness, protesters have come to the streets. When I talk to my friends, I can also sense fatigue. The protests have been going on for so long. However, there are also protesters who think it is going well, given that we now have a legitimate government, the CRPH, who is representing us. The UN has been giving statement after statement, which, at this moment, does not really help much. Also, ethnic groups have condemned the actions of the military, which is another optimistic ray. So, yeah, the protests could go on. Some people say it could go on until next month. It could go even further.

Wai: There is no real strategy from protesters. There is no leadership or driving force that is organizing these anti-coup protests around the country. It is mostly college-going students at the front. There was no strategy when the military started shooting and using violence to suppress peaceful protest. So, it is a sort of wait-and-watch scenario. There are talks going on social media that we should fight back or at least we should defend ourselves, but there is not much you can do when you are facing an armed group of soldiers who can shoot you down at any point. Using violence is not a practical or realistic solution right now. The most the protesters can do is build barricades and stop police from coming in. Even today, military and police terrorists came to neighborhoods to remove the barricades. They also force you to go to work. 

How are people surviving when markets are closed? 

Aung: Markets are not closed. Banks are. I forgot to mention that banks, private and public ones, are doing CDM. It has been difficult to withdraw money because of that. The banks have been nice enough to put money in the ATM but cash withdrawals are high. We cannot spend money because we are facing a cash shortage.

China and Russia seem to be supporting the military. There was a protest near the Chinese industrial site and China issued a statement condemning the attack. China and Russia blocked a resolution at the UN Security Council. The US meanwhile is supporting the protesters. What do you think people’s sentiment is? Are people turning more towards the US, and turning away from China?

Aung: Yes, for sure. We used to import a lot of goods from China, but we have started boycotting a lot of Chinese products. The sentiment regarding China has been negative lately.

Wai: In the UN Security Council, Russia and China have historically sided with no-interference and no-action policy. They have always used their veto power to prevent UN forces from coming in and they blocked the UN resolution condemning the coup in February. Recently, they only agreed on a UN resolution condemning the violent crackdown. The UN, as a body, is not going to take any action. It can only tell us to restore democracy. It can only say “free Aung San Suu Kyi”.

What was the perception of China before the coup?

Aung: Oh, before the coup, it was like Chinese products don’t have good quality. Right now, we make sure we don’t consume their products anymore here.

How are your parents? What is their stance on the coup? They went through the 1988 coup and they spent most of their time under the military regime. How are they reacting to whatever is unfolding right before their eyes? 

Aung: There are some old people who are saying that 1988 was worse and that they have gone through worse. But at the same time, most of the people who have gone through 1988 say they don’t want to see more dead bodies. They want to go back to normal, even if it means going to the time before quasi-democracy. They are more complacent, I would say. I cannot say what other older people think, but at least in my circle, they don’t want to see more dead bodies moving forward.

Wai: They are worried but they still allow me to protest. A few weeks ago, I was protesting on the road, when it was relatively peaceful.

I assume it is a different story for Gen Z, who are more connected with people from their generation and have witnessed more freedom. They definitely do not want to give up on their freedom.

Aung: Yes, and besides Gen Z, there are other groups of people as well, who, within the last decade, saw their standard of living improve under the NLD regime. Those people are also fighting hard for this cause. They have seen the darker era and the last 10 years.

Was it because, in the past decade, there was democracy, foreign direct investment, creation of jobs, etc., whereas, during the military regime, the country was largely shut off? 

Aung: This group of people is mostly blue-collar workers. They have seen their minimum wage increase and how subsidies have helped them. All these factors improved their standard of living. If they come from a low-income family, they have seen their children go to school without paying school fees. And those people are also fighting against the military.

What do you think international actors can do to help the CDM movement?

Wai: I don’t know. The junta’s aim is to set up a government like the one in Thailand, which we call the Thai model, where the military holds a lot of power, but the economy is uninterrupted. Bureaucracy still runs. Myanmar military wants to keep the economy open and grow it as much as they can. So that is their policy. They will make it easier for foreigners to invest in the country. Personally, I used to think that sanctions don’t work. It only harms people in the country. But now I am reconsidering that. I don’t want to grow under the military regime, even if they want to grow the country economically because that growth will sustain the military, and we won’t be able to fight against them — as observed in Singapore and China. They are good economically, but not in other regards. Right now, I support protests against the military. We will be alright. We will grow our vegetables. We can sustain the sanction. We don’t want the country to grow so much that it will be hard for us to kick the military out of politics.

Aung: If you asked me, I would say more exposure. But I am sure this whole coup and how cruel and brutal this military government is known to the world already. Two things that international actors could do is to put more pressure on the UN to have the courage to come into the country. What the world is seeing right now is only a part of the brutality of this illegitimate government. In rural and suburban areas, the military treats individuals terribly. Those abuses the world has not seen yet. Second, spreading awareness on human rights abuses can help gain more attention and put pressure on the UN to actually take action. At this point, the UN is just issuing statements and the statements do not help us.

It is interesting to note the strategy that the military wants to emulate. They must also have several models such as Pakistan’s, where you have a token civilian government, but behind that military has all the power. Pakistan has elections, but those elections are disputable. The military amasses all the power, and over even hair-triggering incidents, they can usurp the power from the civilian government.

Wai: Have there been a lot of coups [in Pakistan]?

Yes, there have been coups, and several politicians have been assassinated as well. Most people who are politically conscious would want to trim the military. They would not want it to grow so that it will be difficult in the future to stop them. It is a critical time. The needle can swing in either direction.

Wai: A lot of things could happen in a couple of months. It is really uncertain. Not every civil servant has joined the CDM movement. A significant number of them are doing CDM and not going to work. The banking industry has not opened fully. All private bank employees have also refused to go to work. The economy is at a halt. So, if we keep going like this, the economy will probably crash.

And it would be a good thing politically?

Wai: It could be a good thing or a bad thing. Yeah, it could force the military to give up power. Or it could even push them to undertake more destructive steps, like denouncing the currency or create hyperinflation, which could cause a lot of commodity prices to go up and lead to starvation. That’s my fear.

Do you think people can get rid of military men in power who are killing people? 

Aung: I believe so. We should get rid of the people who took part in the coup. I think CRPH, with the support of all those armed ethnic groups, is ready to go to civil war. 

Do you think that is a possibility: an inclusive CRPH-led offense against the military?

Aung: I think that will be a possibility going forward. In the semi-urban and rural areas, a lot of protesters already have arms, which they are using to defend themselves against the military. In the southern and northern parts, ethnic groups are already at war against the military.   

Wai: Yes, I think there is a possibility. The point to ponder is whether there could be a successful operation to overthrow the military, or if that idea would just be mired in complex questions such as who is going to be the general of the federal army. There are so many ethnic groups and small ethnic armed groups. It will be hard to organize them into a standing army and set up proper rules. If a civil war breaks out, there is a possibility that small splinter groups will overtake small towns, like what happened in Syria and Libya, where small groups control territories. The whole country will be broken into many holdings. There will be a lot of bloodshed and there will be no rule of law. The question is, how badly will that affect the public?  I mean, in some sense, there is already a civil war in Myanmar. Ethnic groups have already been fighting the military for six decades. The war has just not reached the major cities yet.

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